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 Post subject: Re: Arizona Immigration laws
PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:40 am 
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I understand that these laws are coming into effect shortly arent they Hermie? The same time as the new gun laws?

Will be interesting to see how it plays out... I am still yet to hear a convincing argument as to why illegal migration shouldnt be treated as such.

I've heard more of the "this is the same as how Hitlers germany" started argument... a foolish and flippant comparison in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Arizona Immigration laws
PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:22 pm 
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I don't know a great deal about the measures but from what I have read they will probably mean a few more illegal immigrants will be deported from Arizona. Overall, however, I can't see them have a massive impact. Unless you address the root causes of the problem (illegal employment etc.) it will never be effectively mitigated.

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 Post subject: Re: Arizona Immigration laws
PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:25 pm 
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abraxas wrote:
A cartoonist's take on this:
Image



Actually, along the border, you could put down "Cartel territory."

There is an 80 square mile area in one of Arizona's national parks that is off limits to Americans because it is overrun by the cartels and the government can't assure safety of citizens.

That's adding fuel to the fire to, and is certainly one of the reasons that AZ said enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Arizona Immigration laws
PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:39 pm 
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Craterus wrote:
I understand that these laws are coming into effect shortly arent they Hermie? The same time as the new gun laws?

Will be interesting to see how it plays out... I am still yet to hear a convincing argument as to why illegal migration shouldnt be treated as such.

I've heard more of the "this is the same as how Hitlers germany" started argument... a foolish and flippant comparison in my opinion.

The immigration law, and the gun law goes into affect on July 29th. The immigration law, is currently in court with the federal government, so it may be delayed.

As to the arguments against, I have heard many different arguments. My response is "have you read the bill" and 99% of the time they haven't.
One that comes up time after time is racial profiling. This is clearly in the bill that racial profiling is illegal.

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 Post subject: Re: Arizona Immigration laws
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:36 pm 
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Ironically, Mexico has a lower unemployment number than the U.S.

The judge, within the hour, is expected to give a ruling on whether or not to block Arizona's new law while the case is being heard.

I'll let you know how that turns out.

ETA: Actually, it may be tomorrow morning before she rules. The suspense is killing me.


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 Post subject: Re: Arizona Immigration laws
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:30 pm 
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Julia wrote:
Mexico has a lower unemployment number than the U.S.


Remember that unemployment figures only include those looking for work.

Illegal aliens won't be on the records of their home nation or ours

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 Post subject: Re: Arizona Immigration laws
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:35 pm 
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Illerac wrote:
Remember that unemployment figures only include those looking for work.


Are you sure about that? 'Cause that seems like a pretty stupid way to conduct statistics. In Sweden at least everyone who's not working, studying, retired, disabled, etc. counts as unemployed whether they're actually looking for work or not. Of course, there's also statistics for those actually getting financial support and such but that's a different matter.

Now, I can agree that illegal aliens won't show up in the statistics of their "host" but shouldn't they still show up in their home nation's numbers if they never officially left it?


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 Post subject: Re: Arizona Immigration laws
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:07 pm 
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Faustling wrote:
Illerac wrote:
Remember that unemployment figures only include those looking for work.


Are you sure about that? 'Cause that seems like a pretty stupid way to conduct statistics. In Sweden at least everyone who's not working, studying, retired, disabled, etc. counts as unemployed whether they're actually looking for work or not. Of course, there's also statistics for those actually getting financial support and such but that's a different matter.

Now, I can agree that illegal aliens won't show up in the statistics of their "host" but shouldn't they still show up in their home nation's numbers if they never officially left it?


Unemployment figures in the United States are based off of individuals who are active in their search for work. If after a stretch of time you lose hope and stop searching, you'll be removed from the stats. So you could have a lower unemployment rate which could be due to people giving up.

I'm not sure what Mexican law is on unemployment, so I can't say that. But, if they too have no work and give up trying, then they'd fall off the statistics.

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 Post subject: Re: Arizona Immigration laws
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:53 pm 
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Faustling wrote:
Are you sure about that? 'Cause that seems like a pretty stupid way to conduct statistics.


There's an encyclopedia waiting to be written describing the many ways a government can manipulate statistics.

UK employment statistics are so selective as to be virtually meaningless.

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 Post subject: Re: Arizona Immigration laws
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:02 pm 
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Tanus wrote:
There's an encyclopedia waiting to be written describing the many ways a government can manipulate statistics.

UK employment statistics are so selective as to be virtually meaningless.


True enough. The favored method of Sweden's last (Labour-ish) government was to push unemployed people into various programs which meant they weren't technically unemployed (tried it myself, not too much fun). Although the current (Lib-Dem/Torrie-ish) government doesn't do that particular trick much, they surely have their own ways.

Still, while all savvy politicians are able to manipulate statistics only counting the ones actively looking for work seems weird even by those standards.


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 Post subject: Re: Arizona Immigration laws
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:31 pm 
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Well, Judge Bolton has taken the teeth out of the more controversial points of the new law that was suppose to take effect tomorrow. The government has temporarily won.

It's a sad day for all legal citizens.

We have laws, and the federal government is cherry-picking which ones to enforce.
Ever since Arizona raised this issue, illegals have been leaving the state of Arizona. Problem solved. Enforcement is the key.

I much rather they start deporting, in the most humane way possible, then spend one more day debating it. Get serious about enforcement, and it will solve the problem. I can't think of one single law I could break that I would get an option to wave my hands in the air and say, "Well, I don't like this law, it seems unfair to me." and my disdain would prevent me from having to obey the law.


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 Post subject: Re: Arizona Immigration laws
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:00 pm 
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Now here comes years of appeal.

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 Post subject: Re: Arizona Immigration laws
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:36 pm 
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Illerac wrote:
Now here comes years of appeal.
:smt003

Nay, Arizona could appeal to a higher circuit court, but it would be premature to do so, until this goes to trial first. Maybe December? They wouldn't get anywhere appealing now. The next higher court is more liberal and located in San Francisco. They should stick it out in Arizona and hopefully get the judge to ease the restrictions on the law, using the trial process.

Meanwhile...if we are not allowed on federal parkland because of drug runners armed with AK47's, why don't we just send in drones? I bet that would curb the action real quick. :smt003

I don't understand my country. Anyone want to adopt an American? England? Scotland? I'll even consider Ireland. (I heard there's good surf in Dingle. :smt002 )


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 Post subject: Re: Arizona Immigration laws
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:06 pm 
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Well, surprise, surprise....

Arizona didn't waste any time appealing. I don't think they will get anywhere in San Francisco, though.
Quote:



PHOENIX July 29 (Reuters) - Arizona lodged an appeal on Thursday seeking to lift a judge's ruling blocking key parts of the state's controversial law cracking down on illegal immigrants, the governor's office said.

Lawyers for Governor Jan Brewer and Arizona asked the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco to lift a preliminary injunction blocking parts of the law, known as SB 1070, and sought to expedite consideration of the state's appeal.

U.S. District Court judge Susan Bolton on Wednesday granted an injunction against the most controversial elements, which had drawn wide popular support in this state bordering Mexico.

"Today I filed an expedited appeal with the Ninth Circuit asking the court to lift the injunction put in place by Judge Bolton yesterday against certain provisions of SB 1070 and to allow those provisions to go into effect pending a decision on the merits of this case," Brewer said in a statement.

"I have also asked the Ninth Circuit to expedite the briefing schedule and its ruling, since Congress and the President have once again failed to act," she added.

The Republican-controlled state legislature passed the law three months ago to try to drive nearly half a million illegal immigrants out of Arizona, and stem the flow of human and drug smugglers over the border from Mexico.

Tensions over the law have inflamed a national debate over immigration, which has festered for decades and promises to play into the elections in November, when President Barack Obama's Democrats are fighting to retain control of Congress.

There are an estimated 10.8 million illegal immigrants in the United States, a country of more than 300 million people.

Police arrested at least 30 protesters who took to the streets of Phoenix on Thursday to protest the law, even though its most intrusive provisions had already been blocked by a U.S. court

(Writing by Tim Gaynor; Reporting by David Schwartz, Editing by Sandra Maler)


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