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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:18 am 
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Best to read the chapter first - in which his reasons for inclusion are well, included. Opium addict, possibly - but the suicide is a myth.

Conn


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes; http://www.conniggulden.com/Forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.p
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:32 pm 
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This is a reply to the other thread as well:

I don't know if there is much more I can say. I don't think Clive's military prowess outweighs his complicity in a famine that left millions dead; nor would I argue for any Nazi generals on the same basis. I shall make this my last post, and leave you, as an aside, with the words of William Dalrymple in White Mughals on the increasingly racist attitudes of the British in India:

Quote:
Ideas of racial and ethnic hierarchy were also beginning to be aired for the first time in the late 1780s, and it was the burgeoning mixed-blood Anglo-Indian community which felt the brunt of the new intolerance. From 1786, under the new Governor General, Lord Cornwallis, a whole raft of legislation was brought in excluding the children of British men who had Indian wives from employment by the Company. Cornwallis arrived in India fresh from his defeat by George Washington at Yorktown. He was determined to ensure that a settled colonial class never emerged in India to undermine British rule as it had done, to his own humiliation, in America.

With this in mind, in 1786 an order was passed banning the Anglo-Indian orphans of British soldiers from travelling to England to be educated, so qualifying for service in the Company army. In 1791 the door was slammed shut when an order was issued that no-one with an Indian parent could be employed by the civil, military or marine branches of the Company. In 1795, further legislation was issued, explicitly disqualifying anyone not descended from European parents on both sides from serving in the Company’s armies except as ‘pipers, drummers, bandsmen and farriers’, Yet, like their British fathers, the Anglo-Indians were also banned from owning land. Thus excluded from all the most obvious sources of lucrative employment, the Anglo-Indians quickly found themselves at the beginning of a long slide down the social scale. This would continue until, a century later, they had been reduced to a community of minor clerks and train drivers.

…..It was not just the Anglo-Indians who suffered from the new and quickly-growing prejudices in Calcutta. Under Cornwallis, all non-Europeans began to be treated with disdain by the increasingly arrogant officials at the Company headquarters of Fort William……These new racial attitudes affected all aspects of relations between the British and Indians. The Bengal Wills show it was at this time that the number of Indian bibis [wives or consorts] being mentioned in wills and inventories began to decline: from turning up in one in three wills in 1780 and 1785, the practice went into steep decline. Between 1805 and 1810, bibis appear in only one in every four wills; by 1830 it is one in six; by the middle of the century they have all but disappeared. The second edition of Thomas Williamson’s East India Vade Mecum, published in 1825, had all references to bibis completely removed from it, while biographies and memoirs of prominent eighteenth-century British Indian worthies which mentioned their Indian wives were re-edited in the early nineteenth century so that their consorts were removed from later editions.


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes; http://www.conniggulden.com/Forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.p
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:43 pm 
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Rumbold wrote:
I don't know if there is much more I can say. I don't think Clive's military prowess outweighs his complicity in a famine that left millions dead; nor would I argue for any Nazi generals on the same basis.


Exactly. You don't and while some sort of objective ethical analysis might agree with you, many others disagree with you (probably based on the phenomenon I talked about in the other thread) and since "hero" in it's modern meaning is a completely subjective term I don't think either side could be proven right.
Some people will always be considered heroes by some and villains by others. For example; a Danish king that briefly ruled Sweden as well is remembered here in Sweden as Kristian Tyrant and in his homeland as Kristian the Great. And I doubt the Persians saw Alexander the Great as a hero or that the Galls worshipped Caesar.

Rumbold wrote:
I shall make this my last post, and leave you


Why's that? It's an interesting topic and while I doubt either of us will convince the other, I'd be happy to continue the discussion (as would everyone else, I'm sure).


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:29 pm 
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Faustling:

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Exactly. You don't and while some sort of objective ethical analysis might agree with you, many others disagree with you (probably based on the phenomenon I talked about in the other thread) and since "hero" in it's modern meaning is a completely subjective term I don't think either side could be proven right.


Fair point, with Oliver Cromwell being an obvious example. And Clive was a hero to some at the time, and later on. But why is he a hero to Conn? Conn chose him for inclusion in a book of heroes, which is a value judgement in itself. Take the extreme examples of Hitler and Stalin. They were heroes to some, which is of course subjective. But if a contemporary writer included either in a book entitled 'heroes', you would raise questions about that person's views.

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Why's that? It's an interesting topic and while I doubt either of us will convince the other, I'd be happy to continue the discussion (as would everyone else, I'm sure).


It was more I didn't want to mess the forum topics up by jumping from topic to topic. But I shall continue.


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:06 pm 
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Personally, I've always admired wild, reckless courage. The bit about Clive I liked the most was the duel with the well-known gun-man, where Clive had the man's gun to his head and still called him a card-cheat and the the attempted suicide where the gun failed twice.....the second on is particularly problematic, of course, as it was practically insane to do that, but.....wow.

I never painted anyone as whiter than white - in fact, I made my personal definition of hero in the book, though I can't really print out the introduction and end word as well!

Personally, I think Cromwell is a better example of a difficult inclusion. Clive may have hoarded food for profit (I haven't checked, but yep, it sounds like him), but Cromwell's men definitely massacred the Irish at Drougheda and Wexford and there's not even the usual excuse that the values of the time permitted him actions which we would frown upon today. They didn't really.

However, I had to include Cromwell because - while no one of power leads a blameless life - he was a key player in the execution of a king and the creation of democracy in Britain. That's a huge accomplishment. Clive is the same, really. For all his flaws, he did win one of the most extraordinary battles ever and ruined French chances in India. And God, he was brave. In Bengal, he was known as Sabat Jung - daring in war. Not bad for a clerk.

Conn


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:11 pm 
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Quote:
Personally, I think Cromwell is a better example of a difficult inclusion. Clive may have hoarded food for profit (I haven't checked, but yep, it sounds like him), but Cromwell's men definitely massacred the Irish at Drougheda and Wexford and there's not even the usual excuse that the values of the time permitted him actions which we would frown upon today. They didn't really.


Clive and others hoarded food on a vast scale when they knew about the suffering. That, and his actions post-Plassey, surely blot out any 'heroic' military prowess?

I'm not sure how Cromwell brought democracy to Britain, as he was a military dictator who only allowed heavily controlled elections. His Ireland campaign is controversal and b****. As John Morrill, our greatest Cromwell expert put it, "he followed the laws of war as they had operated in Ireland for the previous century." I, nor John, doesn't think that justifies his behaviour. And this is my problem with the idea of heroes. By labelling men as such, you end up needing to defend most of their actions. I admire Cromwell's military prowess and religious tolerance (by the standards of the time), and he made a good head of state, but I wouldn't call him a hero for many other reasons.


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:10 am 
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Quote:
Clive and others hoarded food on a vast scale when they knew about the suffering. That, and his actions post-Plassey, surely blot out any 'heroic' military prowess?

I'm not sure how Cromwell brought democracy to Britain, as he was a military dictator who only allowed heavily controlled elections.


Good for you for not giving up. I thought we'd lost you there. No doubt we shall agree to disagree on Clive. I'm very much in the camp as described earlier - that a great life can be a mixture of failures and triumphs, or even sins and plaudits. It is my personal belief that many of the high-achievers in history were either 1) trying to impress an absent father, possibly even a dead one or 2) trying to atone for some sin of the past. They were flawed - God, who isn't? - but their lives contained moments of light nonetheless.


I'm tempted to put the Cromwell chapter here, as well as the prologue and afterword, but that would probably be overdoing it. It seems selfserving to suggest people buy the book, but you can go to a library and read it for free!


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:17 pm 
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White Mughals, by William Dalrymple, published by Harper Perennial 2004 – extracts from pp 46-54:

“Most powerful of the critics was one of the Company’s Directors, Charles Grant. Grant was amongst the first of a new breed of Evangelical Christians, and he brought his fundamentalist religious opinions directly to the East India Company boardroom. Writing ‘it is hardly possible to conceive any people more completely enchained than they [the Hindus] are by their superstitions’, he proposed in 1787 to launch missions to convert a people whom he characterised as ‘universally and wholly corrupt…depraved as they are blind, and wretched as they are depraved’. Within a few decades the missionaries – initially based at the Danish settlement of Serampore – were beginning fundamentally to change British perceptions of the Hindus. No longer were they inheritors of a body of sublime and ancient wisdom,…but instead merely ‘poor benighted heathen’, or even ‘licentious pagans’, some of whom, it was hoped, were eagerly awaiting conversion, and with it the path to Civilisation.

…It was to combat the intolerance of these Evangelicals that [the more enlightened British General] Stuart anonymously published a pamphlet called A Vindication of the Hindoos. In this text he tried to discourage any attempt by European missionaries to convert the Hindus, arguing that, as he put it, ‘on the enlarged principles of moral reasoning, Hinduism little needs the meliorating hand of Christianity to render its votaries a sufficiently correct and moral people for all the useful purposes of a civilised society’…The reaction that Stuart generated by writing his defence of Hinduism is a measure of how attitudes were beginning to change at the close of the eighteenth and the opening years of the nineteenth century. A full-scale pamphlet war broke out, with furious attacks on the anonymous ‘Bengal Officer’ who produced the work, denouncing him as an ‘infidel’ and a ‘pagan’.

…[General] Stuart was not alone in facing criticism. All over India, as the eighteenth century gave way to the nineteenth, attitudes were changing among the British. Men who showed too great an enthusiasm for Hinduism, for Indian practices or even for their Indian wives and Anglo-Indian children, were finding that the climate was growing distinctly chilly.

David Hare, a Scottish watchmaker who founded the Hindu College in Calcutta, was actually denied a Christian burial when he died of cholera, on the grounds that he had become more Hindu than Christian. Many more found that their Indian ways led to a block on their promotion. When Francis Gillanders, a British tax-collector stationed in Bihar, was found to be involving himself too closely with the [Buddhist] temple at Bodh Gaya, to which he donated a bell in 1798, the Directors of the Company back in London wrote to the Governor General expressing their horror that a Christian should be, as they put it, administering ‘heathen’ rites. A little later Frederick Shore found that his adoption of native dress so enraged the increasingly self-righteous officials of Calcutta that a government order was issued explicitly forbidding Company servants from wearing anything other than European dress. The following year the army issued similar orders forbidding European officers from taking part in the [Hindu] festival of Holi…The shutters were beginning to come down.

…Two words were growing apart…If that gap widened into an abyss during the first years of the nineteenth century, it was largely due to the influence of one man…On 8 November 1797, Lord Wellesley, a minor Irish aristocrat, set out from England to take up his appointment as Governor General of Bengal and head of the Supreme Government of India. For nearly three hundred years Europeans coming out to the subcontinent had been assimilating themselves to India in a kaleidoscope of different ways. That process was now drawing to a close. Increasingly Europeans were feeling they had nothing to learn from India, and they had less and less inclination to discover anything to the contrary. India was perceived as a suitable venue for ruthless and profitable European expansion, where glory and fortunes could be acquired to the benefit of all concerned. It was a place to be changed and conquered, not a place to be changed or conquered by.

This new Imperial approach was one that Lord Wellesley was determined not only to make his own, but to embody. His Imperial policies would effectively bring into being the main superstructure of the Raj as it survived up to 1947; he also brought with him the arrogant and disdainful British racial attitudes that buttressed and sustained it.”


William Dalrymple discussing the economic impacts of the British Empire on India:

http://www.outlookindia.com/fullprint.asp?choice=1&fodname=20070424&fname=dalrymple&sid=1 :

"For all the irrigation projects, new railways, and imperviousness to bribes, the Raj presided over the destruction of Indian political institutions and cultural and artistic self-confidence, while the economic figures speak for themselves. In 1600, when the East India Company was founded, Britain was generating 1.8 percent of the world's GDP while India was producing 22.5 percent. By 1870, at the peak of the Raj, Britain was generating 9.1 percent, while India had been reduced to a poor third-world nation, a symbol across the globe of famine and deprivation."


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:34 pm 
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Better to make points than just quote others, it makes it easier to follow.

Wellington of course, was in the Dangerous Book of Heroes as well. In general, I avoided politicians, but for the Duke, being PM was actually quite a minor part of his career. I was interested to discover his nickname of 'The Iron Duke' came not from his extraordinary military accomplishments, but for putting iron shutters over his windows to deter the brick throwing crowds while he forced through a bill on Catholic emancipation. A very interesting man.

Conn


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:41 pm 
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Iggulden wrote:
Wellington of course, was in the Dangerous Book of Heroes as well. In general, I avoided politicians, but for the Duke, being PM was actually quite a minor part of his career. I was interested to discover his nickname of 'The Iron Duke' came not from his extraordinary military accomplishments, but for putting iron shutters over his windows to deter the brick throwing crowds while he forced through a bill on Catholic emancipation. A very interesting man.

Indeed, and extra points for beating the French. Repeatedly. And mostly against the odds. And mostly with an army that scared him :smt023


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:17 pm 
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Quote:
Drougheda


Wooo my home town!!! But i'm interested to know where you got the reference for the name? Nowadays we've dropped the "U" so it's just Drogheda but i never saw it written as Drougheda before..... slightly off topic i know but I doubt Drogheda will ever crop in conversation ever again :smt016

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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:21 pm 
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Not exactly a typo, as I thought that was how it was spelled. You live and learn.

I mentioned Cromwell being in the book to an elderly Irish aunt of mine and she recalled how she had once tried to find his grave so she could spit on it. Time doesn't always soften it seems.....

Famously, of course, he doesn't have a grave, as his body was dug up and put on trial after his death, then cut into 4 pieces and taken to hidden locations in Britain before being reburied. Now that's revenge for you.

Conn


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:58 pm 
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Quote:
I mentioned Cromwell being in the book to an elderly Irish aunt of mine and she recalled how she had once tried to find his grave so she could spit on it. Time doesn't always soften it seems.....


Yeah he's not too popular in some parts of the country alright :smt003 .... his death mask was put on display in one of our local museums as part of an exhibition and huge uproar was created over it.

Quote:
Famously, of course, he doesn't have a grave, as his body was dug up and put on trial after his death, then cut into 4 pieces and taken to hidden locations in Britain before being reburied. Now that's revenge for you.


that's mad i didn't know that now. I knew he was put on trial after he was dead but i hadn't realised they cut him into 4 pieces and buried those secretly. An interesting end to his life.

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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:18 pm 
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Do we have a sect of William Dalrymple fan club on here now???
First couple of posts were interesting now its just boring!
People admire historical figures that would repellent to others. Fact! To keep quoting the same author (from not a particularly good book) is just going to annoy people. As Conn has Repeatedly said, he knew some characters were going to be controversial. Lets leave it at that. emoticon307.gif

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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:19 pm 
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Oh I forgot to say, Wellington was the younger brother of Lord Wellsley.


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:43 pm 
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I have this on my shelf - can't wait to read it ...

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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 6:46 pm 
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I have this on my shelf. Ihave dipped in a couple of times and really enjoyed it

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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:24 pm 
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Damn what a absolute brilliant read heroes was.. i loved it!!

keep up the amazing work!!


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 Post subject: Re: Heroes
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:43 am 
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Thank you. That book means a great deal to me, not least because I wrote it with David, my most likeable brother.


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